Nothing can beat the feeling of doing something and living in the moment. Werner Berger found this happiness by becoming a mountain climber even at his advanced age. Joining Steve Farber, he shares his incredible feats as an octogenarian mountaineer. He talks about his world record as the oldest person who completed the Seven Summits at 71 and celebrating his 80th birthday on the peak of Mount Kilimanjaro. Werner relates these achievements to business leadership, emphasizing the right time to slow down and take everything easy. He also explains how uncomfortable situations will allow you to stretch and adapt, ultimately shaping you as a better leader.
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Ageless Passion: Gems Of Wisdom From The Octogenarian Mountain Climber, Werner Berger
My guest is Werner Berger. I want to introduce Werner by way of this book, which by some startling coincidence is also called Love is Just Damn Good Business. I wrote about Werner in this book. By way of introduction, I want to read you a little snippet of what I said in the book about this amazing gentleman joining us. I first met Werner Berger when he was 79 years young and, on a quest, to do something big. That phrase, years young, might sound like a euphemism. It’s a nice way of giving his age without calling him old. There’s no doubt that anyone who has made 79 trips around the sun is no spring chicken. Berger’s youth remains evident in his attitude, his lifestyle, and the quest that I refer to as a prime example.
When Berger and I talked, he was preparing to climb Mount Kilimanjaro in Tanzania. With an elevation of 19,341 feet, it’s the highest mountain in Africa. Where else would you want to celebrate your 80th birthday? Berger already has a spot in the Guinness Book of World Records as the oldest person to have climbed the highest mountain on all seven continents, a feat he completed when he was a young man of 77. He wants to do it all again and that was before 2020. We’ll find out if that happened. The question is why did he want to do that? There’s a real simple answer to that. Climbing mountains is something Werner loves to do. Werner, welcome to the show. I’m excited for folks to meet you and to learn about your story.Even the strongest individuals will need help at some point. Click To Tweet
Thank you, Steve. I’m delighted to be here.
One would assume that if you’re climbing challenging mountains in your late 70s, mountain climbing must have been a lifelong pursuit for you. It’s something you started when you were a wee lad and worked your way up to the course of seven decades. Is that the way it started?
Steve, everybody has the opportunity of being wrong sometimes. This is yours. I started climbing when I did my first trek to Everest Base Camp when I was 55. I completely fell in love with the experience.
All the stereotypes are out the window for what it takes to be a world-class anything. The assumption world-class fill-in-the-blank is something you got to start when you’re young and maybe you’re a child prodigy and you’ve gone to school and trained for it from the time you could first walk. At 55 years old, what inspired you to take on that challenge at that age?
I was sitting in a self-development workshop and the guy in front of the room said, “Think of three things that you would love to do before you die but you don’t think you ever would.” The movie, The Bucket List, hadn’t come out yet so he couldn’t refer to it as what’s on your bucket list. I was born in Africa and knew about Kilimanjaro, I thought, “Wouldn’t it be neat if I could climb Kilimanjaro? Everybody knows this beautiful mountain in Switzerland, Matterhorn. Wouldn’t that be neat?”
In 1953, when Hillary and Tenzing got to the top of Everest, I was sixteen. I was enthused by what had happened. None of the other kids seem to give a darn. Somehow that stuck in my mind. The third thing I wanted to do is simply trek to Everest Base Camp and see this phenomenal mountain, never thinking that any of this would happen. My adventurous son, my second oldest said one day, “Dad, you said you wanted to trek to Everest Base Camp. Why don’t we do it?” The next year, we went. For me, that was a life-changing experience.
How old were you then, 55, 56?
You’re sitting in a workshop and you’re doing the bucket list exercise, although it wasn’t called that. Any one of us that’s ever been on any personal development workshop or seminar has done something similar. The questions are phrased in different ways, maybe it’s what would you do if nobody was watching? If you’re guaranteed to not fail, what would you do? There are lots of ways we ask that kind of potentiality question. For the vast majority of us, that’s pretty much it. It’s a workshop exercise, but there was something that happened in you at that moment where you said, “I want to do this.” It sounds like part of what happened for you is you shared that with your son. He was the one who held you accountable to your own words.
His adventurous spirit kicked in. I still remember when I went home after three days and told my family that this is what I came up with. Everybody chuckled and thought, “What would an old fellow like this want to start climbing?” Who knows what the triggers are that make something like that happen? I know to this moment, the minute he mentioned it, my gut said yes.
It wasn’t simply an intellectual, “Wouldn’t that be nice?” You felt that on a deep level.
Never ever realizing what I was going to get out of that experience.
If your son hadn’t have prompted and encouraged you, would you have done it?
I don’t know. Some circumstances would have needed to being right. More than likely, it would have taken somebody else to say, “Let’s go do it.” I’m not sure of that. I have not even thought of that.
It’s the power of encouragement and belief. What’s your son’s name?
Paul would not have prompted you to do that unless he believed that you were capable of it unless he wanted early access to your will.
He would’ve known that I was capable because I play tennis with my kids, we water ski and snow ski together so it wasn’t that I was a couch potato and needed to drop a lot of weight to get ready. It was a case of getting into action maybe 3 or 4 months before. We were ready, both of us.
You’re already an athletic person and had an adventurous spirit. Paul also had an adventurous spirit. Being your son, he said, “Dad, I heard what you said, you are capable of this. This is not a fantasy. This is a real possibility. Let’s do it.” That’s what hooked you but that’s not where it stopped. That’s where it started. How did it unfold from there?
I came back from that trek having had a fabulous time. I started realizing days, weeks, and months later, that every time I thought of that experience, something shifted in me, some glow and some feeling of well-being emanated. I realized that, for the first time in my life, I was conscious of what it was like to be in the moment. That’s an exhilarating experience. I suspect that was the hook because from here, I wanted more. I thought, “If I want more, what am I going to do?” The automatic answer was to climb more mountains and spend more time in that environment. The more I did, the more I got hooked.When people go at their own speed and they have proper support, there is nothing that they cannot do. Click To Tweet
That experience of being in the moment is because that’s what’s required to climb a mountain.
It’s not only for 1, 2, or 3 hours at a time, it was days at a time where the focus is on every step or the next thing you do. It’s not what happened yesterday. It’s not what’s going to happen tomorrow. It’s what is the next thing you need to do.
The next step, foothold, handhold.
I had no idea that there would be a shift as a result of that. I had done 1-day and 2-day adventures. I had done outward-bounds things that were similar but I had not done anything that had the length of this particular trek. We made it harder than the standard one. We came in from a place called Jiri, which should have added eight days to the track. We did it in six. We were both ready.
Did that experience of being present when you were climbing the mountain carry over into the rest of your life after the experience? Some of it didn’t because you said you wanted to replicate it, which means you had to go back to another mountain to have that experience again. To what degree, if at all, did it carry over into your day-to-day life?
It comes and goes. The key here for me is I’ve now experienced that I have a sense of knowing what it feels like to be grounded in it so I can regenerate it when I have the sense that I’m out of sync. It’s not being in the moment, it’s what comes along with that. The key thing that comes along with that is the incredible awe, amazement, and thankfulness that we live in this environment whether it’s my room right now or whether it’s the majesty of the mountains and everything. It could be a night sky and being blown away and feeling small, not diminished, but humble in this magnificence and having the same sense of love for the fellow climbers.
I’ve always been empathic but it deepened the empathy. I understood that in that environment, even the strong sometimes need help. When they allow you to help, there is elation in it. When they say, “I don’t need help,” but they’re dragging the team back, it’s also an understanding that they are in their macho mode. They can’t give in. When they can give in, it is such a pleasure to be able to support them. The strong sometimes need help. Sometimes, the people that are a little slower, you might think they’re not going to do as well. It is amazing how they can shine as long as you don’t rush them. You have to let people go at their own speed. When they go at their own speed and they have support, there is nothing that they cannot accomplish.
My first trek that I took people to Everest Base Camp, I had 40 people with me. Every single person made it. The youngest was 18 and the oldest was 84. We came away feeling like a family. The second last night, we got to a place that couldn’t accommodate all 40 of us so we were broken into two Sherpa tea houses. The team suffered from that split. They did not want that split but we had no option. It was an amazing experience.
The translation of that is obvious to other contexts as well. It takes a certain level of teamwork to make it up a mountain. The dynamics aren’t that different in any team and business, for example. The stakes are different though. When you’re climbing a mountain together, it’s life or death in some circumstances if not all. We hear about casualties all the time on the mountain. You don’t hear too many life-or-death stories from business teams.
Except emotionally. We have emotional deaths that are much harder to come back from.
That’s an interesting angle on it. I don’t know that anything is harder to come back from than an actual physical death. It could be hard for an entire team to come back from as well. The other thing that I was struck by is you’re calling out the people who struggle more and need help. It can be the greatest source of inspiration because they have to overcome something else compared to somebody who’s a macho, super athlete, or whatever. You still give the applause, but for that person it’s like, “That makes sense coming from you. You climbed the mountain. You hardly even lost your breath.” For somebody else who wanted to give up every step of the way and make it all the way, that’s inspiring.
Many times, the super athletes struggle the most because they do two things, they go too fast and they’re cocky. They think this is going to be a breeze. From a physical perspective or the capability as strict physical strength sense, it is a breeze. The minute you put altitude into the game and they start struggling for breath, it’s no longer under their control unless they do what you tell them to do. What you tell them to do is to breathe deeply and not be embarrassed when they have to breathe heavily or when you say to them, “Slow down and change the way you’re taking your step. Kick into what is called the climber step or the rest step, which simply means that every time you step, there’s a split second of relaxation and then you step again.” The super athlete doesn’t want to do that. They want to go which means that their muscles are constantly in motion and constantly stressed and burn out more rapidly than the slower person.
There are little micro rests in each step.
You take a step, relax for a second, and take a step. While you’re relaxed, your weight is equally distributed on both feet so that you’re not stressing your leg muscles. Deep breathing, you’re sucking in more oxygen, especially when you pressure breathing, which means you’re exhaling. The macho guy doesn’t want to need to do that.
In a typical workout, it’s only the out-of-shape people who are out of breath.
It shows weakness.
It’s because they’re out of shape. As of November 2013, you became the oldest person in the world at 77 to complete the Seven Summits.
It’s the highest peak on each of the seven continents. I did an eight one because the mountain in Australia, which is the highest peak on that continent, is low. From a climber’s perspective, it gets replaced with a mountain called Carstensz Pyramid in Papua New Guinea. That’s the one I did when I was 77.
The one in Australia was a bonus mountain to say you did it.
It’s the tallest peak on that continent. What was funny as I was going toward the summit, families with babies in arms were coming back down because it’s only 7,200 feet.
You don’t see that on Everest, for example.
I did not anticipate that.The human body can perfectly take what it needs to become magnificent machines that nobody couldn't replicate. Click To Tweet
Your background is in the business consulting leadership development world. Is that what you did in the early days of your career?
I own my own business for a while. I retired at age 43 because I was tired of what I considered working for my employees. What I learned is I was not a good leader. I did not know. I did not have any models for good leadership. I expected them to do certain things. There were two keys that I learned on the mountains that correlate to leadership. One of them is the ability to be assertive when you need to take a stance or to be able to stand back when it’s necessary, and the other one is to have high empathy. If you have those two things and you’re congruent with them, then you can connect with people. What we all want to do is connect with people. That’s what love is all about. It’s a deep connection or caring for the other person or having a sense of what it’s like to be in their shoes without working and doing it. It’s got to come from the inside. It’s almost got to be an automatic to be truly authentic.
It didn’t matter whether it was sales training, customer service training, managerial skills, or leadership skills, people would walk away from a workshop saying, “I’ve learned so much. This is the best thing since sliced bread. This is going to change how I do my business.” Six months later, they don’t remember the name of the course, let alone having implemented any of the skills. I fully understand why that happens, because until they know who they are and until they know they are comfortable with themselves and can truly look outside and not always been thrown into, “Me,” they can’t implement the skills that they say are so critical, which has everything to do with a win-win environment.
It sounds to me that’s the difference between the intellectual understanding of a leadership concept and the actual experience of love and empathy for the people that you’re leading. I can understand that I’m supposed to feel that way. I can do the mechanics of acting that way, write personal notes, say thank you to people, and take them to dinner. There are lots of things that I can do. Unless that intellectual understanding is connected with something that I’m feeling and experiencing, it doesn’t last. I imagine, on the mountain there’s no choice. Your intellectual understanding of what it takes to climb and how to use the equipment and your intellectual understanding of the physiological effect of high altitude doesn’t do you a damn bit of good unless you practice climbing in a particular way and you’re incredibly present in each moment.
One thing I would add is I don’t believe you can will that on yourself. You have to put yourself into a situation that could be extremely uncomfortable. The same thing with the cognitive behaviors that we learn, you can put yourself through the learning curve to integrate but most people stop because it’s not a straight line. For example, if I’m a tell assertive person, I hear what you’re saying about listening skills and that I need to do this and be aware of my body language. As I’m doing that for the first few times, I’m feeling uncomfortable. As I keep doing it, I get into what is called the phony feeling phase. I feel phony about that. Not just do I feel phony but you give me signals that I come across as phony because I’m not congruent.
It takes X number of repetitions, we’ve got some stats on that, before I get to the comfortable phase, but I still don’t own it until that’s integrated. Going through that curve becomes the hero’s journey. For me, the hero’s journey was climbing the mountain and getting to know who I was, discovering this guy. I had no idea who I was until I started climbing. I worked my butt off in track and field, tennis, and everything. I’m always attempting to prove myself and my little business that I had, growing it 700% from seventeen employees in seven years. That still was not enough. It’s never enough for some people. It wasn’t for me. I needed to find myself.
That’s a beautiful description of why, six months oftentimes, people forget what workshop they were even in a half year ago. That journey that’s required of each of us is, by nature, uncomfortable. We human beings don’t like to be uncomfortable. Around here in these parts where I live, we call that the pursuit of the OSM, which stands for the Oh Shit Moment. That’s why that’s important, because growth doesn’t happen without it.
Intellectual understanding is easy. That’s why we get such a common occurrence of the pretender, or as we like to call it, the poser who’s saying all the right things, appears to be doing the right things, dressing up, metaphorically speaking in the right way, but nothing has shifted inside. You climbed many mountains to have that experience. What about the rest of us who have no intention of doing such a thing? What are some of the ways in which we find our transformations on the same scale without scaling in that way?
There are a number of ways of doing that. Meditation is one. Getting a deep sense and appreciation of how magnificent our bodies are, how magnificent this whole universe is, and how beautifully it hangs together. When we think in terms of this Earth being a ball of molten lava at some point or molten rock and it’s gradually cooling and becoming soil over time because of certain conditions and life forms are starting to develop in terms of plants, creatures, and how the soil is perfect to grow those plants. Those plants are perfect to nourish our bodies. Our bodies are perfect to take from that what we need to be these magnificent machines that you couldn’t replicate if you even attempted to in any way, shape, or form. Unless you can get a sense of that magic, which you can do through meditation or through different kinds of experiences. Even taking a communication skill, for example, and working it through to the point where I’m comfortable with it that I now own it as a path toward that.
This is a deeply philosophical question. You laid out the history of the universe for us in a few words. It sounds so beautiful and effortless that evolution one thing leads to another and the interconnected nature of nature happens. It flows. It comes down to us as individuals and we got to work hard. Why do we have to work hard when nature unfolds seemingly effortlessly in the process? Is it something we do to ourselves as human beings where we’re overcomplicating things?
Yes. From my perspective, if a person is whole and complete, they raise families that are whole and complete. What we know is most kids come out of high school having a sense of not being good enough, not having a clue who they are. At ages 1, 2, 3, they were rambunctious, played, and everything seemed to be in harmony and worked. Gradually, the way we have conditioned them, they have lost that capability. We need to relearn that. If we go to some of what we call primitive tribes, you see how harmoniously they work, play, and live together. They won’t violate the jungle, for example. They will look after the jungle.
The Bushmen in Africa would pray before they put a poison dart into an antelope. They would pray with the antelope that it would feed them and not have a backlash because of what they did. That’s congruency. We’ve lost that through our own Western culture. That’s what we’re striving to get back to. That’s what you’re striving to get back to within corporations. You’re striving to have people realize that love is just damn good business because that’s the only way to thrive and harmoniously work together and make this world a better world.
Why shouldn’t we be able to do that in a business context? There’s no universal law written anywhere that says love is something that we all strive for. We all want at least. It applies everywhere but does not apply Monday through Friday between the hours of 9:00 to 5:00. That doesn’t make any sense to me at all.
It doesn’t and it does. Deep down, if I have a sense of not being good enough, everything that happens outside of me threatens me. I need to fend against that. It could be through being arrogant, being a bully, or receding into the background and disappearing and becoming a laissez-faire manager or leader. It’s all about self-preservation. If I’m not feeling good enough but if I feel strong internally and I don’t mean strong over somebody but that I don’t need to always look for, “What’s in it for Werner? Is this going to hurt him? Am I giving too much away?” but focus externally, which is what you’re all about, Steve. You can’t love somebody if you’re not focused externally.
Unfortunately, we find the right person that we can love and experience but we can’t seem to transcend that into others. Often, the person that we love at some point because of behavioral differences or anticipation or even outcome differences become separate from us. We stop loving them. How can that be if we love them once? How can we not continue to love them and understand that they are different and have different needs?If a person is whole and complete, they raise families that are also whole and complete. Click To Tweet
We’ll start by one of the examples that you gave from the mountain, leading a team of people. There are times where you have to be forceful. There are never times where you shouldn’t be empathetic. In other words, you should always be empathetic even when you’re being forceful because the situation demands it. It’s my empathy that’s requiring that I’m forceful in this moment to save your life or to save you from making a terrible career move or whatever. Sometimes, people confuse real love in a business context with simply trying to make people happy all the time and always being the nice person and always smiling. It’s far from that.
If you’ve committed something to me, I can be forceful around expecting that you will do this, finding out why didn’t it happen, and what do I expect you to do next time if you commit to it. Don’t make a commitment to me that you’re not planning to keep.
It’s not my ego that’s demanding that of you. It’s my love for you that’s demanding that of you because I want to see you live up to yourself.
A good leader can sometimes be like a good parent, strict in terms of what the expectations and the agreements are but always considerate of the other person and how they feel. The minute I damage that feeling, I’ve got somebody that’s going to avoid me whenever they can and they’ll start disrespecting me because I’ve stepped on their toes. Maybe it was unintentional but that’s the damage or that’s the problem. A few leaders intend to damage their people and yet they do it because they don’t know any better because they haven’t gone through their inner journey. They haven’t found and grounded themselves in their magnificence, in fact, so it’s not selfish. In their magnificence, they need to ground themselves.
You had a goal to celebrate your 80th birthday on Mount Kilimanjaro. Did that happen?
It did. I celebrated my 81st on Kilimanjaro and that was my ninth climb. My first goal was to celebrate my 65th on top. Unfortunately, my climb in 2020 got deferred and this climb got deferred. Hopefully, I can get back to Kilimanjaro or Everest Base Camp with a group of people because I want them to experience what I experienced on these journeys.
Has there ever been a particular climb where you had a goal, maybe it’s the summit, but you didn’t make it?
Twice. It took me three attempts to climb Mount McKinley, which is now called Denali. The first time, we got within 200 vertical feet from the summit. The summit was only twenty minutes away so it was a gentle slope to the summit. It was 7:30 at night. The wind was gusting like crazy and clouds were moving in. The time of night was not a problem, because at that high latitude you have daylight even at midnight. That wasn’t a problem but because of the wind and the extreme cold and the clouds moving in, we had to go down.
When we came back, everybody was disappointed that I hadn’t done it and I hadn’t succeeded. All I could think was, “What the heck? It was the most phenomenal.” I got the chance to go back. A few years later, I went back and got trapped at High Camp for nine days. We had to get up during the night to shovel snow off the top of the tents to keep them from collapsing. We ran out of food and fuel. We found a little window to escape down and succeeded in doing that. The mountain was closed for another five days and we didn’t have enough food.
The accomplishment there was living through it.
I wouldn’t change it.
How old were you then?
This was 2006. I was 64 or 65.
It’s like, “I get to go back again.”
We were almost caught by the weather. Ideally, we would have climatized at High Camp for one day before heading for the summit but we had heard that the weather was moving in so we went for the summit, made it, and got down before the weather hit. It did hit.
The obvious thing that I’ll point out here is we get so focused on our goals that we think that anything short of achieving what that articulated goal was is, in some way, a failure. What you’re describing is that it’s not the case. It’s a different experience that has its value and then it gives you another opportunity to go and hit that goal again.
What I learned from that is the real meaning of the words that everybody knows, the journey is the destination. In that situation, it is. There was a model of it.
Werner, is there a time in your foreseeable future where you’re going to stop climbing or is it going to be determined by when you stop breathing? Is it going to be something you plan on doing for the rest of your life? Will there be like a band does a farewell tour, you do a farewell climb?
It’ll depend on my physical capabilities. I’m struggling with knee issues. Unless I get them healed, a trip to Everest Base Camp and another one to the top of Kilimanjaro will be it. However, I’m working with somebody out of Vancouver, Canada who thinks he can support me in me healing my knees without having any knee replacements. That’s what I’m working on.
I’ll be looking forward to hearing how that turns out. Here’s the question that I have for you by way of advice. All of us, every one of us, without exception, is getting older. That’s the definition of being on this planet as it were. I don’t know what it’s like on other planets but at least on his planet, that’s the way it works. For myself, when I think about my business and the future of my business and things I want to accomplish, there’s a little part of me that says, “How much time do I have to do it?”You can't love somebody if you're not focused externally. Click To Tweet
Is it worth it for me to pick up a new skill or to try something new or start a new aspect of my business? How much of that time do we have left? Is it 10, 20, 30 years? For all we know, it could be tomorrow. We don’t know. There’s a part of us in our conditioning that says there is a point at which we should settle down and not think about the future so much or think about what we want to accomplish or create. You can’t teach an old dog new tricks. That whole thing. What advice would you give to those of us who might be a little bit ensnared in that way of thinking?
The key thing, for me at least, is the moment I sit back and I stopped dreaming, I may as well not be here. There’s always more to learn and do. My body is not as capable now as it was several years ago. That doesn’t mean that I need to stop following my passions. One of the absolute keys for people that I didn’t know in my 60 or 70 years of being on this planet, which is ridiculous, is to become quiet and to start looking at what turns me on, what fuels me, what, in my past, did I love to do and no longer doing.
Asking the question, if money were no object, what would you do with your life right now? Not in ten years’ time, right now. Let the tenth year evolve out of having pleasure and meeting your inner drive in the moment. All we ever do is live in the moment and yet so much of the time, we’re not there. That’s something I learned on the mountain. You only have this moment and this time to enjoy. It’s not ten years from now or being a millionaire. It’s what’s happening now. That’s a lot to do with loving yourself.
By definition, this moment is not a function of how old you are because it’s always this moment, no matter what your age.
I hadn’t even thought of that. That is accurate. I wish we’d learned this at age ten.
No regrets, just this moment. That’s a past-oriented statement.
That’s true because what happened at age ten led to my capabilities and my experience of this moment. I’ll take that back.
What a wonderful journey you’ve taken us on, Werner. I love your descriptions of the mountain. I felt like I was up there with you. Honestly, that’s as close as I’m going to get. That’s not my jam as it were. How inspiring the lessons for all of us whether we ever climb a mountain or not. Metaphorically speaking, we’re all climbing around mountains every day.
It’s clear from the way you communicate that you have gone through your inner journey, whatever that was. You couldn’t be this present if you hadn’t.
Thank you for saying so. It’s an ongoing journey. As we’ve talked about in some of the episodes of this show and something that I don’t often talk about publicly, I started meditating when I was thirteen years old. That doesn’t mean that I’ve done it every day since but I did for decades after that. Since the days of the COVID, I started turning back inward a lot myself and a lot of people have. Bringing meditation and breathing more into my daily practice makes a huge difference. In some of the clients that I work with, I’ve been encouraging them to do the same. It is that experience of the moment. It does something. There’s some effect that it has on the act of climbing the mountain, metaphorically, the journey that we all go on every day.
If we don’t take the time to settle down for a little bit and be quiet, the experience of being in the business, being in a relationship with people, and striving takes on a different characteristic. It is fun to be able to turn that into something that we’re conscious of and present in. Sometimes, it takes an example of somebody like you to have us reflect on what that means for us. You’ve given us a great gift through sharing your story, giving us the gift of reflection on our own. I’m speaking on behalf of everybody who’s reading. Speaking for myself, thank you for giving me the opportunity to reflect on my journey. How can people get in touch with you, Werner? What’s the best way to connect?
The easiest way is email. It’s simply Werner@Quest736.com.
It’s been an absolute pleasure. Thank you so much for joining us. Thank you everybody for reading. Until next time, do what you love in the service of people who love what you do.
Thank you, Steve.
About Werner Berger
Leadership Development – our expertise and joy.
Assessing and diagnosing corporate opportunities.
Helping individuals break through subconscious blocks so they can get out of their own way.
Corporate Culture Change.
Coaching and Training (money back guarantees).
Climbing and adventure travel.
Guinness Book of Records holder for being the oldest person in the world to climb the 7-Summits.
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