No business can ever succeed with only money-making in mind. What every entrepreneur must aim for is to promote a workplace culture where everyone can grow and love according to a single working purpose. Steve Farber sits down with Cesar Enciso, CEO and Founder of EVOTEK, who shares how his team grew rapidly even in the time of COVID-19, thanks to a culture focused on human empowerment. He explains why a healthy working environment also means getting rid of members that cannot contribute well and how doing your work correctly doesn’t reflect in revenue alone. Cesar also presents their cultural challenges in today’s remote setup, mostly dealing with intimacy and collaboration, and how they address them all in the name of love.
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Money Is Not the Main Motivation With Cesar Enciso
My guest is Cesar Enciso, who’s the CEO of a technology consulting company called EVOTEK. He’s a serial entrepreneur. He started EVOTEK in 2014. These guys are over $300 million in revenue in their sixth year. They’ve been voted as one of the best places to work every year since 2015 by the San Diego Business Journal. These guys are doing some great things. He’s built a terrific culture and his story is fantastic. You’re going to get some great ideas. Please read and enjoy my conversation with Cesar Enciso.
Cesar, welcome to the show. I’m glad you’re here.
Thanks, Steve. I’m super excited.
I want to know your story and the EVOTEK story. Let’s start with the high level and tell us what the company does￼. Put it in layman’s terms. We all know at least something about the technology space, but most people are like myself who know very little, it seems. Tell us about what the company does.
When we started in late 2014, the company was set up as a consulting organization, but also a big part of it is as integrator, people that would help resell technology. We go into very large customers and help them with their platforms, if it’s storage, cybersecurity or dev ops. We help them design it, implement it, and then hopefully, service it and help with the maintenance part of it.
How many people do you have now?
We have a little over 150 employees, and most of that growth has been based on COVID. We’ve hired 46 people and things are most definitely booming from an organizational standpoint.
I would gather that if the big chunk of your growth has happened in the COVID era, it’s primarily if not completely a virtual team.
We still have some customers that want us to help them out with their data centers. We have people that are still going out on site, but 80% of the organization is remote and 20% of that is still doing on-site work.
What’s the breakdown of your employee team? Are they mostly engineers? Business development? How does that shake out?The less noise that we have in the world that you let in, the better you're going to be from a human standpoint. Click To Tweet
For the first six years, things are shifting in the organization. We’re an operational engineering–led company. I always tell people, “If you give salespeople the best engineers and you have the best operation, they’re going to do amazing things.” If I had to break it down, it would probably be about 35% operations, 40% engineering, and then the rest are leadership/account managers.
Let’s talk about Cesar. You’re a serial entrepreneur. This isn’t your first company or your first rodeo. What has your entrepreneurial journey been?
It’s been twofold. Right out of college, I graduated with a Finance degree, minored in Real Estate Law. I’ve always had the traditional role of an account manager. I worked at ADP, Cisco, Veritas, which got acquired by Symantec. The other side of the house was always on the real estate standpoint. I’ve bought short-term rentals. I’ve done flipping and I syndicated deals. I bought raw land and helped develop land. One of my hobbies is I have an app that is going to be on the Apple store. It’s going to be called ZenVRM. It helps not very large property management companies, but people like ourselves to manage short-term rentals without the expense of paying somebody 20% or 25%. That’s my new endeavor and I believe that’s going to probably be my biggest endeavor ever.
As far as your time is concerned, is it more on the side hustle category? Where do you get the time for both of those ventures?
I’m not a big sleeper. I have never been a big sleeper. EVOTEK is a full-time. What’s helped me is that the leadership team that we’ve hired at EVOTEK is incredibly legit. In the first two years, if something happened to me, I don’t think the company would have survived. Now, the company is not one person. It’s has a lot of different people doing a lot of different things. The other stuff is what I do on the side. It’s a true passion of mine, but from the real estate standpoint, I can never imagine not having a finger on it someway, somehow.
When you say you’re not a big sleeper, what does that mean? What is a full night’s sleep for you?
Until I was 32, probably about an hour and a half. I had something and I found out after the fact that I had something called Graves’ disease. I had an overactive thyroid and did not know it. I had autoimmunity so I never slept a lot. They had to remove my thyroid when I was 32. From 32 to 36, I was probably oversleeping because I was getting adjusted to them removing my thyroids. It’s a pretty big deal. Now, I probably sleep five hours. It’s probably been the best sleep I’ve had in a long time because of not traveling and being able to do routines.
If my advanced mathematical skills are correct, you sleep for five hours, so that gets you nineteen hours of productive wakeful alertness. Is that what it is? Are you energetic and awake and going for the rest of the time that you’re not asleep?
I am pretty energetic throughout the day. The morning is usually my sweet spot. My best time of thinking, reading and figuring out the big rocks and the big picture are usually the morning stuff. The rest of the day is filled with family, kids, work and all the rest of the stuff that we do.
You carve out that reflection time first thing in the morning. What does that look like for you? Is there a ritual associated with that?
There is right now. For the previous months since we’ve had not the pressures of traveling, one of the niceness of not traveling is being able to put myself on schedule. The first 90 minutes, it’s 100% reading. It’s not getting on emails, it’s self-development. It could be about being a better man or how to be in better shape. Medium is probably the site that I spend the most time on. They’re great short articles. I get a lot of small nuggets of information that I expand and do some research on. After that, I start working out. I do a 90-minute walk with my dog every morning, then I start hitting the weights for probably about 60 minutes. I then jump into emails and then I talk to my leaders and then start the day.
What time of the morning is that usually when you’re starting your business day?
About 7:15 AM or 7:30 AM.
I’m sitting here comparing it to my own routine as I’m sure a lot of people are doing as they’re reading this. I’m not saying that people are comparing it to my own routine, they’re comparing it to their own routine. If you’re starting your business day at 7:00 AM and you already walked for 1.5 hours, read for an hour. You are getting up pretty damn early. That’s the way I interpret it. If I’m not getting 7 or 8 hours, I feel like I’ve been deprived.
There’s a part of me that’s envious of that level of energy that you have. Particularly since the days when the COVID started, I feel like I never moved from this chair. It’s challenging. It’s a different kind of energy that it takes to hop on a plane, travel across the country and other parts of the world, get up on stage, give a speech, spend time with clients and write. It’s a very different kind of energy that it takes to focus on a screen and connect with people. Yet, that’s where we’re spending most of our energy nowadays. Is that true for you? Are you mobile at all or are you working out of your home office all the time?
I’m still mobile. I set up meetings and go to the office with my leadership team. We do social distancing. We adhere to everything. One of the things that are interesting is that since I’ve been doing my walks in the morning, I get a text saying, “Can I join you on your walk?” Two out of the seven days, I have a customer joining me. One out of the seven days, I have an employee joining me. People are getting into the swing of going outside. I do hikes and every Sunday. I’m golfing with my son. I have customers say, “Do you mind if I take my son with you and we’ll meet at the golf course?” At least for myself, I’ve always opened my schedule. If anybody wants to just jump on one of my events, I’ve always enjoyed the company.
When you’re strolling along in the early morning with one of your customers, have you noticed if the nature of the conversation is any different from if you were in more of a business setting? How would you describe it?
Probably 80% of my conversations with the folks that I’m spending time with is a lot about family and mental health. I’m a big believer that the less noise that we have in the world that you let in, the better you’re going to be from a human standpoint. Not listening to the news, not having an argument with somebody who’s left or right. I’m trying to get away from all those conversations that can influence the stuff that you could do or think through. I have very few conversations about politics. To me, it’s a waste of time and it’s not meant to be good for anybody.Being bigger doesn't mean you're better. Sometimes, it's even the opposite. Click To Tweet
Nothing gets accomplished by it nowadays other than getting something off your chest. I’m guessing that what’s happening when you’re having those casual conversations with business associates, whether they’re internal or customers. You’re building a different kind of relationship by hearing their personal stories.
I can’t tell you how many times that I’ll walk with somebody and we’ll talk about a book. We’ll talk about reading the book together, and then meeting up in a month. It’s been fun and interesting to get different books and get more on a human level.
That relationship is important to you in business, otherwise, you wouldn’t be inviting people to join you on your walks. ￼When you set out to build EVOTEK, did you have an idea in mind as to what kind of business you wanted to create? Not in terms of the products and services you’re selling but what kind of experience you wanted to create for your colleagues and employees?
That was the whole concept of when we started EVOTEK. I’ll take a step back and I don’t say this from a bragging standpoint. I’m in my 50s but I’ve been financially free since 38. I did not create EVOTEK to make more money. The concept was, how can we build an organization that protects the group of people that you’re working with every day? How could you make sure that culture is king, and how do you lean into treating people well? From day one, the concept was we pay our people competitively and probably even better than the marketplace. On top of that, 35% of our net profits go back to our employees every year as a bonus.
We’ve taken and stripped down some individuals that have different roles like leadership and account managers. We’ve given that 35% to our operational people, finance people, marketing people, legal people and engineers. I had two experiences prior to this that both owners weren’t involved in the business as I thought they should be from an employee and a customer standpoint. They’re the people that were reaping the benefits of buying wineries, yachts and jets, and not paying an employee a $15,000 bonus. It didn’t make sense to me. From day one, that was the concept. It was how can you build an organization? It doesn’t matter if you sold number two pencils or technology, but how can you train people to become invested into the business itself? We’ve grown incredibly fast compared to any of the historical businesses that have ever done what we’ve done.
You know my bias on this. It’s a leading question, but I am curious as people that are cut from the same cloth like you and I are, which is to say that we believe a business should be an enriching and rewarding experience for the people that work in it. Is it cause and effect? In other words, you guys are blowing up, you’re expanding like crazy, you’re winning all kinds of awards, and your customers and partners love you. Is it because of the culture that you created or is it a happy circumstance that the bottom line and the culture are existing side by side?
I fundamentally 100% think that it’s about setting up the organization with a lot of the fundamentals of having people empowered. You’re treating people with a lot of love and respect. It’s 100% culture. I think that there are some things that some people might not agree on. When you build an organization like this, what I always tell people is, “It’s not always who you just hired, but also who you let go.” If somebody is not good from a culture standpoint, and if you allow somebody to treat customers, partners or people internally bad, it’s very important to get rid of those people quickly. It sends a message to the company and employees that that behavior is not allowed and not accepted. I’d rather not grow as fast if we can’t keep that culture going.
What’s an example of a behavior that is not unethical or not illegal but it would be unacceptable in the EVOTEK culture?
A few examples are when people are talking down to some of our employees, people yelling at some of our employees, people thinking that because they have a title, they could treat somebody with a lesser title poorly. I’ve had to get rid of two people that were incredibly talented. I chased them for years to get into EVOTEK. Both of these individuals didn’t have the ability to treat people the way I expected so we had to let them go.
Have you ever had to apply that same standard to a client? Have you ever had to fire a client?
It doesn’t happen often but yes, we have. There have been two and it’s the same concept, yelling, screaming, treating people poorly and being very disrespectful. We had one of our employees, especially in nowadays environment, there were some diversity and racial slurs that were happening. That got reported to us.
Given that you’ve been involved in several entrepreneurial ventures of your own and with other people, what advice would you give somebody who’s starting a company? They’re excited about their product or service, they feel that there’s a need for it in the world. They’re making their pitches to investors, be they Angel investors, venture capital or whatever it is, and they put their initial team together. What advice would you give that generic entrepreneur about the thoughts that they give to culture right out of the gate? The reason behind the question is I’ve noticed that a lot of entrepreneurs don’t even consider that in the beginning. They’re excited as they should be about making the money and filling a need in the marketplace. They go after it, and then they start to grow, and then one day, they look around and say, “It doesn’t feel good here. We better work on that culture thing,” as if somehow the need for culture popped up overnight.
Once that happens, it’s already too late. When you’re midstream in anything and you’re trying to go backward, it’s hard. I’m not saying it’s impossible, but it’s hard to ever capture the culture part of it. At least for our end, we started off with what our core values were. We read a book called Traction. I don’t know if you’re familiar with it, but it talks about making sure that no matter what you do, you have to have passion for it. You’ve got to wake up every day and want to do this. If it’s about just making money, your partners are going to feel it, your customers are going to feel it, your employees are going to feel it.
There are a lot of competitors out there that have a better competitive advantage because they don’t have to do it, they get to do it. That becomes a huge competitive advantage. I don’t have to work, but I get to work every day. With EVOTEK or with anybody, I’m a big believer that you have to write what your core values are. We are very clear on that. One of our core values out of the six is community. We do a lot of community work. We started two nonprofit foundations. Our employees, customers and partners are involved. The goodness rises up to everybody.
I always tell people, “You need to have passion for what you do. You need to make sure that your employees feel the same way.” We give a lot of empowerment to our people because I want people to act like business owners. If they do, they’re going to come up with ideas and they’re going to look at what you do, sometimes in a different edge. They’re going to suggest something that is better than what we’re doing. I feel like I have 150 business owners and everybody is involved in what we do.
Do you have a good number of people that were with you from the beginning?
We don’t have a lot of people leave us. We’ve been voted the Best Place to Work in San Diego for 5 of the 6 years. A lot of the original people are still here. What scares me more than anything is when you grow this rapidly, what does it do to your culture? Does it change? That is probably my biggest worry. Can you grow too quick? I believe you can. Being bigger doesn’t mean you’re better. Sometimes, it’s even the opposite.Become the best at what you do and the money will fall. Click To Tweet
Let me focus on that for a second. It’s an unfair question because I’m asking you to answer it on behalf of somebody else. If I were to talk to one of your founding team, the people that you hired in the beginning, and ask them to describe the EVOTEK culture back then, what would they have said? How would they have described it?
Family, intimate, a lot of empowerment, exciting and building. Those are the big ones.
If we fast forward to now, a hundred and more people later, and if I asked those same people, “How would you describe the culture now?” would it be any different?
I think so, and that’s what I worry about. From a transparency standpoint, that’s what I worry about the most. Four of the five are still there. The intimacy part is not as strong as it used to be. I don’t know how much that is because of the COVID era because we’re not getting together. We used to always get together. One of our offices is right next door to the beer garden. There were always people getting together. There were always people collaborating. I wonder how much of that is based on what’s happening in our world versus is it just EVOTEK? It could be a little bit of both but 100%, I worry about that.
It likely is a bit of both. Every company is having to deal with and pay particular creative attention to the relationship dynamics because of the obvious reason that we’re physically separated, most people are. When you combine it with the growth, that’s the classic, “This place is not what it used to be. Remember, it used to feel like a family. I used to know everybody’s name.” It’s a classic thing and it takes constant care and attention.
One of the things that we talked about in the Love is Just Damn Good Business book is this idea of culture. Culture is about cultivating. You have to cultivate the soil. You don’t just plant a few seeds, throw water on it, and that’s it, it takes care of itself forever. You constantly have to pay attention to it. The fact of the matter is there’s always a culture, whether you pay attention to it or not. There’s always something, there’s some dynamic, there’s something being created. The fact that you guys created an intentional culture from the beginning is different from the way a lot of new companies operate.
It’s something that is constantly in the minds of our executive leadership team. I could be 100% focused on it, but if there’s only one person doing it, it doesn’t scale. When COVID happened, we got together from a leadership standpoint very early on March 2nd. On March 9th, we got a town hall for all our employees and what we told them was, “We’re going to go remote. We’re not going to cut comp. We’re not going to cut bonuses. If we run our business at zero profit this year but we keep everybody, we’re good with that. As a matter of fact, we’re going to increase our benefits to make you feel safer, but we need to make sure that you’re vested. We need to make sure that you’re taking care of our customers. We need to make sure that we all lean into what the unknown is.”
We grew our revenue from $174 million to $311 million. I believe that was getting our employees involved, making them feel safe, not messing with the security of their family. We do mental days off because mental health is a relationship. I reach out to fifteen employees in a week, and I won’t let them talk to me about work, “What’s going on with you? How’s the family? What do you need?” My other leaders do the same thing. When people feel safe, people will do amazing things.
Are you doing anything different to anticipate the natural tension in the culture as you continue to grow? What has changed in the way that you’re paying attention? The things you said are huge. Those were specific to the pandemic. If you take the pandemic out of it and just the growth side of it, let’s remind ourselves that this is a temporary situation, what do you anticipate doing differently to not only maintain but also enhance the culture as time goes on?
We’re in the middle of it. Our first step is figuring out, the people that we’ve hired, do we have the right infrastructure to be able to support those people? Over the last few years, we’ve grown our organization operationally and engineering-wise. Our sellers have been flat for the last few years. 2021 is the first year that we’ve increased our sellers. What we’re looking at now and we’re doing the exercises is that, do we have the right infrastructure? Are the amount of engineers, cell support people and finance people set up properly?
To increase one group and then give people more work, that’s not scaling your business. We’re going through the exercise to figure out what should be the right amount of people supporting the sellers that we currently have. Hopefully, we’ll get that figured out. The next exercise we’re doing is figuring out what is the maximum amount of employees working can you have in this model? It can’t be 1,000 employees and do this. It doesn’t scale. If I mean that culture and love are everything, then as an owner, I need to stop the growth and just protect the group that I have. Is that 200 employees? Is that 250 employees? I don’t know what the right number is, but I believe it’s around that.
You don’t think it’s possible to scale what you have to 1,000 employees culture-wise.
I don’t believe so. The bigger thing is we might have folks that want to do that. I won’t be part of that because it doesn’t fit what my vision of EVOTEK is. We might have the leadership team say, “We could scale this to $11 billion.” That’s not what I envisioned. That’s not what I have passion for. I hope that we don’t make that mistake, but if the leadership team tends to want to do that, they’ll just have one less employee.
That’s an interesting point of view for an entrepreneur. Most entrepreneurs, it’s ingrained in us to think, “It’s grow or die. It’s expand or die.” Some of that depends on how you define what growth means and what it looks like. What I’m hearing you say is, “If I’m interpreting growth as 1,000 employees, I’m not interested. The love is more important to me than an exponential bottom line. Where is that line where we maintain what I love about the culture and continue to grow and make sure that people prosper?” That’s an interesting consideration. Most entrepreneurs are like, “If I can grow to 1,000 people or 10,000 people, that’s incredible.” What I’m hearing you say is, “No, thank you.”Being heard means being loved. Click To Tweet
I’m also a big believer that one of the things that could cripple an organization is when you make an acquisition. We made our first acquisition in October 2020. The reason why it could cripple your organization is you’re bringing a whole group of people into an organization that has a different culture. It doesn’t mean that they have a bad culture. They just have a different culture. We are still in the middle of getting everybody on the same page. Getting everybody to understand what the mission is and what our six core values are. That group, we’re merging 100% to have them not be isolated in two different cultures.
If you look at the private equity business, their main goal is how do we financially engineer an organization to be able to have us make 30%, 50% more on our investment? Let’s figure out how to pay people less. Let’s take some of the benefits away. Let’s not do 401(k). They’ll figure out ways to operationalize something and financially engineer something so they could sell it for more value. That’s not what EVOTEK is about. I’ve been approached numerous times by private equity. That’s one of the worst things you can do from a culture-based company.
When you started EVOTEK, you didn’t need the money. That has carried through to now and also as you project it into the future. It’s not solely about the money. The money is important, that’s where people’s safety comes from. There’s this prevailing myth in the business world that the pursuit of wealth, joy, and making a difference in the world are essentially mutually exclusive. You have to pick one because in order to do one, you’re going to sacrifice the others. I’ve never believed that was true. My second book, The Radical Edge, is all about that. It’s prosperity, joy, meaning and making a difference in the world, all at the same time. That’s the edge that I believe we should all be striving for. The minute you have that influence that says, “It’s all about the money and therefore, let’s take things away from people. Let’s sacrifice the personal joy and meaning in service of the bottom line,” is the way a lot of these folks operate. It’s a myth. You don’t have to do that in order to enhance the bottom line. You guys are great evidence of that.
My dad used to always tell me when I was younger, “Become the best at what you do, and money will follow.” Don’t try to figure out how to make money and then put your skillsets on top of that. Continue to try to be the best. No matter if you sell number two pencils, technology or jets, do the best at what you do, the money will be there. When we started the organization, I put in a good amount of money to start the company. I thought the payback was going to be at least three years. The money got paid back in nine months.
From an owner standpoint, I haven’t taken $1 from a profitability standpoint. The reason was I’m a big believer that there’s going to be something out there that we’re going to want to invest in. If it’s an integration center, if it’s a product, if it’s the best talent out there, or the people that we hire are not inexpensive. One of the stats that we do follow is when we do talk to our people when we bring them on board, we ask them, “What was your best W2 year?” Ninety percent of my people have made more money here at EVOTEK than any other place.
I’m a big believer that the distribution of wealth in America is off. The 1% is completely off. I believe there’s no middle–class in America. The Federal minimum wage is $7.50. California is $14. We don’t have one employee that’s not making less than $30. That wasn’t always the case when we started. We had some people that we paid less money. We had to, but the day that we started making money, we did the right thing to go back to our employees to say, “Let’s get the levels that we all get to hold our head high up.” That stuff is more important than making money.
That’s fantastic. What a great example for the rest of us. I’m excited to see where you guys are headed. I’d love to see you guys explore the boundaries of how big can a company get and still maintain that culture? You’ve used this word a couple of times, and I just happen to know that you’re a believer in it. Let’s talk about it overtly. It’s the love thing. How big of a company can you become and still hold on to the love? What I mean by that is you still love it, people love the experience of working there, and your customers and clients still love doing business with you. It’s on all those levels. As we bring this in for a landing, let’s throw love into the mix. I’ll ask you the question that I’ve asked many guests on the show, to quote the great sage and philosopher, Tina Turner, “What’s love got to do with it?”
Before we wrap up, I want to give you a low data point of how I found you. One of my leaders, when I was working at Symantec, a gentleman named Chris White. He dropped off your book at my desk and said, “Read it.” It was The Radical Leap. When I read that book, I was like, “Wow.” It most definitely made an impact. I probably bought 100 copies and I dropped it off to customers and friends. Anybody that wanted to talk to me about it, I just open up. Your work has impacted the way I started EVOTEK. A lot of the philosophies of love, leaning into your employees, doing the right thing and making an impact in the world has made a big difference.
I’m at 150 employees. I don’t know how many more employees I could add that you start losing the culture of it. It’s going to be an interesting journey. It’s not just myself but within the organization, love is thrown around a lot, family is thrown a lot. When people need to take time off because they’re having a hard time for whatever reason, people will pick up extra work to help those individuals out. We’ve had some people that had been affected by COVID, we didn’t miss a beat because people are like, “That individual is out, let me carry the load because I know that if I was hurting, somebody else would be picking me up.” That part of this journey has been amazing. Our whole company is based on doing the right thing, love, making sure that everybody is empowered to make a difference and to be heard. I’m still a big believer that being heard means being loved.
The big question that all of us need to strive to answer in our businesses and lives, in general, is what should love look like in the way that we do business and relate to each other? Fully and completely listening with empathy and care is a simple and powerful way to show love. We could use a whole lot more of that in every element of our lives. Isn’t it wonderful that we could use business as a way to create that example? In the place where people used to say, “That’s not something you do in business. That’s something to do with your kids.” Business is all about that bottom line, and listening be damned was the attitude for so long.
We spend more time doing what we do every day from a work standpoint than we do from a family standpoint. When we love from a family standpoint, we know that works. Why wouldn’t you ship that into work? To me, it’s crazy that people think the opposite.
It’s obvious to some of us. First of all, I want to say thank you for the kind words about The Radical Leap and the impact that it had on you. That’s a great personal currency for me. That’s what gets me out of bed in the morning, to hear those stories and to see what you’ve done before we even met by virtue of you putting these ideas into practice. After all, that’s what it takes. It’s not about understanding intellectually, it’s about operationalizing in the way that we do things. It’s cool that happened back at Symantec. I flashed back a little bit. I worked with a few different people at Symantec. If we spend some time, we could probably find the genealogy that led back there. Who was the guy that ran it?
Enrique Salem. Once in a blue moon, I still text with him. He is the Managing Partner of Bain Capital. He was a leader that leaned into love. I was a seller for the company. I still reconnect with him a couple of times to spend one–on–one time and have him coach me. Both of the CEOs that I worked for at Symantec, Enrique and John Thompson, were both amazing human beings from a love standpoint. They’re great role models.
I spoke at one of Enrique’s meetings with the senior team. It was in San Francisco or somewhere in the Bay Area. That was where I connected with him. I remember liking him a lot. We stayed connected on social media for a while. Next time you talk to him, send him my best. I’d love to reconnect with him as well at some point.
I’ll text him and let him know that we connected.
That’d be wonderful. Cesar, what a great treat this was. Thank you so much for sharing your story and the EVOTEK story, most importantly, for being an example for the rest of us. You are a wonderful, walking, talking, living, breathing example of doing what you love in the service of people who love what you do. Kudos to you for showing us how it’s done. Thanks for being with us. To everybody reading, thanks for tuning in once again. Until next time, how about you doing what you love in the service of people who love what you do? I’ll see you next time.
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